So I'm creating this thread to get feedback on scheduled transactions.
A couple things:
1) What recurrence types are import to you? Things like "the last Saturday of every month"? Outlook's recurrences I heard somewhere? Does this tool cover all of your recurrence use cases? (https://jkbrzt.github.io/rrule/)
2) Financier can, by nature, have the same budget on two different computers. Imagine that you open the budget on two different, offline computers separately with the same scheduled transaction and a new transaction appears in the register in each computer. When you sync the budget data on both computers, should you get both transactions (duplicates -- don't try to replace one with the other)? Should one overwrite the other, with precedent to the 'approved' scheduled transaction (if one is approved and one is not)? If one is disapproved (deleted) and the other is approved, should the approved one take over? If one is not approved and the other is disapproved, should the disapproved one take over and you effectively don't see either?
Obviously there are a lot of edge cases here. :) What I want to avoid is if you have a scheduled transaction on one device you use a lot working great, and then you open a very old version of your budget on another device which then creates scheduled transactions and then doesn't intelligently merge them when you sync that budget.
Hopefully that makes sense! Please comment!
Quote from: Alex on December 07, 2016, 09:00:53 PM
So I'm creating this thread to get feedback on scheduled transactions.
A couple things:
1) What recurrence types are import to you? Things like "the last Saturday of every month"? Outlook's recurrences I heard somewhere? Does this tool cover all of your recurrence use cases? (https://jkbrzt.github.io/rrule/)
I only use the basic ones, monthly, every other week, once off so that tool well and truly covers it for me.
Quote from: Alex on December 07, 2016, 09:00:53 PM
2) Financier can, by nature, have the same budget on two different computers. Imagine that you open the budget on two different, offline computers separately with the same scheduled transaction and a new transaction appears in the register in each computer. When you sync the budget data on both computers, should you get both transactions (duplicates -- don't try to replace one with the other)?
No duplicates please.
Quote from: Alex on December 07, 2016, 09:00:53 PM
Should one overwrite the other, with precedent to the 'approved' scheduled transaction (if one is approved and one is not)? If one is disapproved (deleted) and the other is approved, should the approved one take over? If one is not approved and the other is disapproved, should the disapproved one take over and you effectively don't see either?
I like the logic here, this would all work well for me.
Is there a timestamp associated with the creation of a scheduled transaction? If so, wouldn't the last transaction creation date/time take priority on "duplicates"?
I use the basic ones as well:
1) Weekly, Fortnightly (every other week), Monthly, Quarterly, Bi-Annually, Annually.
This is sufficient but some banks have the 'Last day of the month' or 'Last working day of the month'. I'm not too fussed by it, I just adjust manually when the time comes.
If you want to be tricky and have a toggle switch to say if the expected date (15th of each month) lands on a weekend, then bring the date earlier or later to the working day.
Probably too much effort but the suggestion is there. (I'm happy with the basics)
2) No duplicates
Regarding #2, I would not want the scheduled transactions to be duplicated. I would want the software to be smart enough to know which transaction to keep. My concerns relate to making changes to the transaction after it was entered. I wouldn't want those to be overwritten.
Regarding scheduled transaction frequencies, it would really be great if there was a setting that allowed scheduled transactions to be pushed to the previous business day or next business day. I can see a use for both. I would also like to be able to indicate that a scheduled transaction will only last for # of transactions. Those were two of the big things missing with YNAB. With that, I'm going to just indicate the frequencies I have:
- Once (not recurring but still scheduled)
- Every other week
- Twice a month / 15th (or the business day before) and the last business day.
- Twice a month / 4th and 19th (or business days after)
- Monthly on a set date (or the business day after).
- Monthly on the 15th (or the business day before).
- Monthly on the last business day.
- Every other month
- Quarterly on a set date
- Yearly on a set date
- Every other year
- Every 5 years
Other options I don't personally use:
- Daily
- Weekly
- Every 4 weeks
- Every 4 months
- Semi annually
So really, the main improvements to YNAB's options are an ability to move back/forward for the business day closest to and an end date / number of recurrences limit. That's what outlook does great.
Quote from: Joel on December 08, 2016, 12:12:21 AM
So really, the main improvements to YNAB's options are an ability to move back/forward for the business day closest to and an end date / number of recurrences limit. That's what outlook does great.
Looking around at the website you linked, it looks like the business day and end date issues can both be incorporated. Doesn't seem completely user friendly how it's configured on that website, but it seems like it can handle what I want :parrot:
I'm pretty basic too - even though I rely very heavily on scheduled transactions to reduce the drudgery of transaction entry - particularly as most of my bill payments are automated and go out electronically.
So:
1) Monthly on a set day
2) Yearly
3) A one off payment
But of course I understand that others may need difference frequency. The majority of people in the UK are paid monthly or 4 weekly and have their bill payments on a monthly cycle.
I use the following:
Weekly
Every Two Weeks
Every 4 weeks
Every 15th and last day
Monthly
Every 3 months
Yearly
I would love for "or previous business day" to be like a checkbox option when setting the recurrence. The 15th and last day is my paycheck, and it moves around so much because of weekends or holidays. I actually have my paycheck set up as 2 different monthly transactions for my sanity due to the fluctuations, but I would prefer a single entry.
ETA: I would also love to have a number of occurrences set, either by integer or by a calendar end date. Skipping an occurrence should not change the "end date" but would decrement the number of remaining occurrences.
This would make my life easier for things like allowance, where the amount goes up on the first allowance day following a kid's birthday. I'd be able to set up all of them until they move out of the house well in advance. :)
Quote from: MacMichael on December 07, 2016, 09:47:31 PM
Is there a timestamp associated with the creation of a scheduled transaction? If so, wouldn't the last transaction creation date/time take priority on "duplicates"?
That's a great idea, thanks!
I use the monthly and the one time on for the most part.
My monthly is sometimes a reminder.
One of my monthly repeating ones is really "deliver on or by" a certain date and I use the ACH delivery method so I manually correct the regularly repeating monthly each month. It takes 3 business days for ACH to take place. I haven't seen a method yet that would make that easier. If there happens to be a method that'd be great but it is not a deal breaker once scheduling works.
This may not be on topic but it is related to scheduled transactions. It would be very helpful to have a checkbox to include or not include the outlflow/inflow amount in the scheduler. Many of my scheduled transactions have different amounts every month. The way I currently do it (in that other software) is to flag the transaction if I have manually adjusted the amount in the scheduled transaction. The downside of this method is the flag remains when the transaction moves to the register.
Once, Weekly, monthly, quarterly, 6 monthly, annually, every 4 weeks.
The 4 week period is important as some salaries and pensions are paid on a 4 weekly basis. "Once only" is useful so that forward dated transactions can be entered without showing on the statement until due date.
Colin
Quote from: MacMichael on December 08, 2016, 09:46:00 AM
This may not be on topic but it is related to scheduled transactions. It would be very helpful to have a checkbox to include or not include the outlflow/inflow amount in the scheduler. Many of my scheduled transactions have different amounts every month. The way I currently do it (in that other software) is to flag the transaction if I have manually adjusted the amount in the scheduled transaction. The downside of this method is the flag remains when the transaction moves to the register.
For the variable amount transactions I have setup for automatic bill pay, I just leave the amount blank. That way I know I need to update it each month.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is the ability to enter a transaction into the register, and the ability to skip a payment. Both of those features are critical.
Looks like all of my recurrence uses have been mentioned in previous posts.
The list that Joel posted would cover everything for me, especially "Monthly on the last business day".
I think the only issue with a "previous business day" button is can it be customized? From 2012-2015 I lived in a country where the business week was Sunday through Thursday.
Quote from: jenmas on December 08, 2016, 11:16:02 AM
I think the only issue with a "previous business day" button is can it be customized? From 2012-2015 I lived in a country where the business week was Sunday through Thursday.
The page Alex posted in the initial post would allow for that.
Count me in for the basic scheduled transactions (one off, monthly, 6 months, yearly). I used to have a bill that was charged every 8 weeks, but that went away a while back. I always thought it would be nice to have a few variable options like Once Every XX Days, Once Every XX Weeks, Once Every XX Months. Previous business day would be great, since that's how my paychecks work twice a month... although it's a little more complicated since holidays are taken into account, which can push a transaction back even further. Now that I think about it, I want automatic previous business day bumping, with holiday awareness, localized for each culture. ;)
The Amazon autoship used to allow for some pretty crazy N week frequencies. Not sure if it still does.
@Alex, this should probably be a separate topic, but have you considered using the scheduled transaction data to feed another quick budget option?
@asromzek How do you envision doing that? Like to forecast based off of what scheduled transactions fall in the month?
If so, that could definitely be an option.
Quote from: Alex on December 08, 2016, 05:36:06 PM
@asromzek How do you envision doing that? Like to forecast based off of what scheduled transactions fall in the month?
If so, that could definitely be an option.
Yes, it would be based on the upcoming scheduled transactions for the month. If you have already spent money in the category, the quick budget might want to take that into account, so the the amount to quick budget would be money spent already + total of upcoming scheduled transactions.
@Alex I'd like to see scheduled transactions used for a graphic Cashflow monitor of accounts.
If you're not sure what that means, Microsoft Money did an awesome job with it and was a great way to monitor for needed transfers between accounts. It was built into their scheduler module. You can download the MS Money Sunset Edition to see what I'm talking about.
It's more of a nice to have, because future dated transactions in the register combined with a running balance can accomplish the same thing (though with a bit more work on the part of the user having to juggle the scheduler).
I might have to download ms money this weekend to try it out. :)
Quote from: Alex on December 09, 2016, 07:59:32 AM
I might have to download ms money this weekend to try it out. :)
Like I said, a nice to have. Not a need. But it was one feature I really loved and miss since I stopped using MS Money (about two years ago). I still keep it installed so I can look back at historical transactions... came in handy when my wife's jewelry was stolen from a hotel room earlier this year and I was able to look up purchase prices for the insurance claim.
I pulled it up today thinking about providing a screen grab, but everything is so out of date that it looks fugly.
came in handy when my wife's jewelry was stolen from a hotel room earlier this year and I was able to look up purchase prices for the insurance claim.
Kanye? :o
QuoteI use the following:
Weekly
Every Two Weeks
Every 4 weeks
Every 15th and last day
Monthly
Every 3 months
Yearly
I would love for "or previous business day" to be like a checkbox option when setting the recurrence. The 15th and last day is my paycheck, and it moves around so much because of weekends or holidays. I actually have my paycheck set up as 2 different monthly transactions for my sanity due to the fluctuations, but I would prefer a single entry.
Great idea for the checkbox option but would like to add 'next business day' too. Most likely if a payment lands on Saturday it would come out on Friday but if it landed on Sunday it would come out on Monday.
I would also appreciate a last day of the month option.
Quote from: jerryfmccarthy on December 09, 2016, 08:54:07 AM
came in handy when my wife's jewelry was stolen from a hotel room earlier this year and I was able to look up purchase prices for the insurance claim.
Kanye? :o
Housekeeping. They found 1 earring out of 8 in the dryer. Hotel insurance reimbursed us.
Quote from: Billy_McSkintos on December 09, 2016, 09:38:55 AM
QuoteI use the following:
Weekly
Every Two Weeks
Every 4 weeks
Every 15th and last day
Monthly
Every 3 months
Yearly
I would love for "or previous business day" to be like a checkbox option when setting the recurrence. The 15th and last day is my paycheck, and it moves around so much because of weekends or holidays. I actually have my paycheck set up as 2 different monthly transactions for my sanity due to the fluctuations, but I would prefer a single entry.
Great idea for the checkbox option but would like to add 'next business day' too. Most likely if a payment lands on Saturday it would come out on Friday but if it landed on Sunday it would come out on Monday.
I would also appreciate a last day of the month option.
I thought about Next Business day after I made the post.
Perhaps it would require a set of radio buttons or a select box with options for No Change/Next Business Day/Previous Business Day
I don't think we should make it so complex that it accounts for business holidays. Just days defined as weekends. Business holidays are all over the place depending on where you live, and if transactions are occurring in a zone other than which you live, that's the possibility of a different set of business holidays.
Quote from: nolesrule on December 09, 2016, 10:27:43 AM
Quote from: Billy_McSkintos on December 09, 2016, 09:38:55 AM
QuoteI use the following:
Weekly
Every Two Weeks
Every 4 weeks
Every 15th and last day
Monthly
Every 3 months
Yearly
I would love for "or previous business day" to be like a checkbox option when setting the recurrence. The 15th and last day is my paycheck, and it moves around so much because of weekends or holidays. I actually have my paycheck set up as 2 different monthly transactions for my sanity due to the fluctuations, but I would prefer a single entry.
Great idea for the checkbox option but would like to add 'next business day' too. Most likely if a payment lands on Saturday it would come out on Friday but if it landed on Sunday it would come out on Monday.
I would also appreciate a last day of the month option.
I thought about Next Business day after I made the post.
Perhaps it would require a set of radio buttons or a select box with options for No Change/Next Business Day/Previous Business Day
I don't think we should make it so complex that it accounts for business holidays. Just days defined as weekends. Business holidays are all over the place depending on where you live, and if transactions are occurring in a zone other than which you live, that's the possibility of a different set of business holidays.
I updated my forum signature, which should be considered when reading anything that I post. :P
I updated my forum signature, which should be considered when reading anything that I post.
By now, I don't think you even need that...
I must be skipping something because I don't understand the issue about duplicates.
Couldn't we just attach an underground bool "created" on the scheduled transaction?
We connect, sync, and then check for scheduled transactions and only popup/create if created = false, all invisible for the user.
About the budged think, we could use a checkbox to take in account the future scheduled transactions on the budget. Would be a fast method to see the forecast and the current budget.
About the period, just try to make it the flexible the better because even that the advice on this post seem great, we are going to miss situations and a flexible system is imperative easy to add skipped ideas.
My 2 cents on this:
- Chosen N days of the month (1-31).
-- Goto 3
- Chosen N days of the year (1-366).
-- Goto 4
1- Every N day of the week. (1-7)
2-- Every X week of the month or chosen weeks. (1-5)
3--- Every Y month of the year or chosen months. (1-12)
4---- Every Z year or chosen years. (1-inf)
Combination of the previous with a workday checkbox (workday closest, by the right or the left, to the date defined in the previous section)
- Checkbox (workday left)
- Checkbox (workday right)
Rounding to the left on months with 28-31 days or months with 4-5 weeks. And another to round the result if the day doesn't exist to the closest one.
rrule seems great. Maybe I miss a checkbox related to workday (left) (right).
I think we don't have to play magician tricks and think about this scheduled date as something simple and illustrative.
Scheduled just needs to be simple. There are plenty of examples out there and most seem to work ok as far as I can see. It is unfortunate that this part of the development is not here yet as it is the one thing that I really need - without it Financier remains a no go zone for me and I want to use it so much :-(
Agreed - for now I have just made a list of my scheduled transactions in my task manager and enter them on the day they arise. But this does of course cause a significant amount of unnecessary data entry.
I know Alex has it at the top of his list. My nYNAB renewal is due in a couple of weeks so I may just cancel and trust Alex to come up with the goods in Q1 ;D
It would be nice if I couple make a Financier => nYNAB tool so that people could feel less worried about trying Financier out.
Ehh, maybe a Financier => YNAB 4 tool would be good (and then you can just upgrade normally).
Something to think about. :)
Quote from: Paul on January 18, 2017, 07:40:05 AM
My nYNAB renewal is due in a couple of weeks so I may just cancel and trust Alex to come up with the goods in Q1 ;D
My nYNAB renewal is also due in a couple weeks. I changed it from annual to monthly. I'll pay the $5.00 per month until Financier has scheduled transactions and a mobile app.
Quote from: Mike on January 18, 2017, 09:21:25 AM
Quote from: Paul on January 18, 2017, 07:40:05 AM
My nYNAB renewal is due in a couple of weeks so I may just cancel and trust Alex to come up with the goods in Q1 ;D
My nYNAB renewal is also due in a couple weeks. I changed it from annual to monthly. I'll pay the $5.00 per month until Financier has scheduled transactions and a mobile app.
Yes indeed - on reading your previous post - I did that initially. But now I'm feeling braver (or am an idiot :-\)
btw I understand that the monthly option is no longer available for new or lapsed subscribers
Quote from: Paul on January 18, 2017, 09:26:05 AM
... I understand that the monthly option is no longer available for new or lapsed subscribers
Yup, that's correct. I let my subscription lapse, and only had the option of renewing for a full year. They re-enabled my trial for 34 more days to get through tax season, which was good enough for me.
I'm Financier full time now, and have no regrets.